Joel Hume's Second Speech
on Stinson's Second Proposition
HUME'S SECOND REPLY,
ON THE SECOND PROPOSITION.
Gentlemen Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen:--From necessity I shall be compelled to be very slow, and very low in my voice on this occasion; it will require close attention to understand me distinctly, and this I desire the audience should do. May the spirit of Him that said let there be light, and there was light, guide my tongue in this discussion. The first thing I have noted in the last speech was a simple declaration of Elder Stinson, that he had fully sustained the two propositions; this is a matter that I do not intend to contradict. I do not intend to deny it, but will leave this important matter with the people, and let them determine whether that has been done--yea or nay. He then tells us, in the next place, that he had come nearer converting us, than he had expected in the outset of this discussion. This somewhat astonishes me, for I have not been able to see the evidence upon which a good conversion might be founded; consequently I still remain a heretic, according to my worthy brother, and perhaps shall remain so. Of one thing I am very certain, that if a denial of the statements he is advocating constitutes heresy, I am one. He then told us, if I understood him correctly, that I was opposed to the Old Testament scriptures being introduced in the discussion. I will say that if I did object, I was wrong, for I did not design doing so. I think I have not forgotten my position; it was this, that these declarations were made to God's national Israel, and their spiritual application was to be found in the spiritual family of God. That is my recollection of the matter; whether they were my remarks or not, they are the sentiments I believe. Consequently, not requiring national Israel to make choice properly of spiritual things which belong to the church of God, the members of the church individually have a right to choose, and upon condition of choosing the good and right way, as Christians can do, they realize the blessings of God's promises; and upon condition of refusing, they suffer his chastisements. Apply the Old Testament scriptures in this way, and I receive them as belonging strictly to, and as applying to the family of God. But our friend tells us he can't see this point. Perhaps a little eye salve of divine grace might help him; for my part I can see no difference in this point; I understand it just as I presented it.
He then makes the impression, and I will not now say that it was incorrect, that in the presentation of some of the quotations made in my last speech, yesterday, that I presented the idea that all the lineal descendants of Esau, belong to the God-hated family. Now, I have no recollection of making any such statement. If I did, I was wrong; for I do not believe it. I simply meant to present this idea, that Cain, Ishmael, Esau and Judas were representative characters in their nature and standing, and that they represented that family recognized as anti-Christ, that have grown old in wickedness against God, and who have rejected the counsels of God. That is what I mean; not that the lineal descendants of either, as a nation, each and all in their individual being, are hated of God; for I do not believe that doctrine.
It is certainly true that the apostle does tell us that there are vessels of wrath fitted to destruction, against whom God hath indignation forever; and this text my friend has not noticed. These are the people that are figuratively represented by the characters above named, called Babylon, the mother of harlots, in whom is found the blood of the saints of God; but not the children of every individual descended from Esau or Ishmael, nor even the children of these individuals. I hope, therefore, I shall be understood upon that point. We have arrived at a point which I have anticipated from the commencement of this discussion. This make the sixth discussion I have had without ever having challenged any man; and in each of these discussions I have had the same point presented to my mind, and that is this: If the theory we advocated be true, it necessarily follows that all that die in infancy of these nations are irrevocably damned. Now, I have never employed Brother Stinson to be my expositor. I as firmly believe, as I believe that God lives, or that you are here, that all the human race that die in infancy go happy; and any person who has heard me preach, knows that is my faith. However, he tells us not to publish it in Gath, nor proclaim it in Askelon, that such sentiments are advocated. God forbid that I should advocate them! and I have never known a man that did advocate them.
I might, if it was either gentlemanly or Christian-like, present objections on the other side that would be quite as fearful as those presented here; but I will not, but hope that the congregation believes me honest, when I state that I do not believe the doctrine. We are told that the Jews were God's elect people, and it was the Jews that the Savior called the generation of vipers and serpents, and whom he asked, How can you escaped the damnation of hell?
Now, in a national point of view, the Jews were God's peculiar people; they were God's chosen people; they were God's elect nationality. Jesus, the Divine Savior, was a Jew; consequently, the Jews were his people. Now, I ask this congregation, in all candor, can you persuade yourselves to believe that the Divine Savior thus addressed his brother Jews, declaring them to be a generation of vipers--promiscuously calling them vipers and serpents--telling them they could not escape the damnation of hell? Now, let it be remembered that we have a text of scripture like this: "They are not all Israel which are of Israel; neither because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all the children of Abraham."
Now, if we look at this matter as the Bible presents it, we have this fact brought before the mind, that the elect of God nationally includes some who are not God's elect individually; for the apostle says, "They are not all Israel which are of Israel." Hence, it is to this portion that the language of the Bible refers: "He came to his own, and his own received him not." Now, did they all reject him? Did the Jewish nation all reject him? Surely not. So we have the language, he came to his own, and they rejected him. If I understand this matter, it means that the great mass of the Jewish nation rejected the Son of God. Why? Because they had not the spiritual understanding of his divine mission; consequently, could not, for the want of a spiritual understanding, realize the truth of the prophecy that preceded Christ's coming; therefore they rejected him, while others received him. Now, that is the generation of vipers that the Savior refers to here; but did not embrace that portion who believe on him.
Now, I will make this remark, lest the people think more hardly of us than they ought, that I as firmly believe as Elder Stinson does, that the reason why sinners are damned is on consequence of their unbelief. Then the question comes up, Why did not they believe? We are now getting very close to the point at issue. If you will turn to St. John xii, 39, 40, you will find this language: "Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them." Tell it not in Gath, publish it not in Askelon, that God has said some people can not believe. That is not the worst feature of this text, speaking after the manner of men; for he that says they can not believe, has hardened their hearts, has blinded their eyes, lest they should see and understand.
But, says that dear sympathetic friend, Mr. Hume, that will never do; if that is true, God is unjust. Nay, what am I? poor unworthy mortal as I am, should I challenge the great Jehovah of the earth and bring him to account for his conduct? Dare I do it? Let me die first. I take his word as I find it, and whether you are willing to believe it or not, the day and time is coming when we shall be willing to confess that this is God's truth, and that these things are so. Just explain them away, if you can; here is the reason why some people do not believe--because they can not. As to why they can not, that is not my business. I have never attempted to arraign Jehovah, neither do I intend to apologize for the conduct of my Lord, for he is too wise to err.
Well do I remember a time in my past life, when in my very soul I believed that if I was damned, God would remain just, and if he saves all the rest but Joel Hume, and damns him, he will still be just. I might introduce a host of scriptures upon the point just mentioned. You need not suppose, dear friends, that the fountain is exhausted; the Bible abounds in such declarations. All I ask is, for some brother to tell me what these passages mean. But that I may convince you that I have not misrepresented the matter, I will give one or two more quotations.
Do you remember when the Savior uses this language: "The tares are the children of the wicked one, and he that sowed them is the devil." Do you remember reading in Daniel, language like this: "The wicked shall do wickedly, and none of the wicked shall understand, but the righteous shall understand." If you have not read that, you may. I might go on till your patience would be worn out in quoting scripture of this character; but if my life was at stake, I can not see how it is possible to get these two classes together. He has given us characteristics by which we may determine on which side of this great question you or I stand.
My dear friends, I cheerfully acknowledge with all the confidence I have in my worthy opponent, and in the brethren who stand identified with him, I say with all my confidence in the purity of the motives that influence him upon this occasion, and in the vital purity of the principles of Christianity everywhere, I can not believe the doctrine he advocates; and surely men ought not to be condemned for what they can not help. I am irresistibly constrained to the belief that Jehovah is sovereign in the accomplishment of any purpose, and that he never intends to be thwarted.
I would now remark, for my time is nearly out, that this system of things, as we understand it, has never stood in the way of the salvation for a sinner; that God has never decreed that any individual on earth should be damned, as we have heard charged about infants; that we embrace fully the saying, that "whosoever will, may come and take of the water of life freely." I care not where the man lives, or what his name, or color, or condition, if he is willing to be saved, God rejects none. The point of difference between us is this; he maintains the position that mankind in unregeneracy possess the volition of will upon this subject (of choosing eternal life), while I maintain, that no unregenerate sinner has a will to seek Christ. Why not? Because they love sin. And till their love of sin is destroyed, till they are led to realize its damning qualities, and get a desire to live in holiness, they will remain in sin; just as long as they love sin, they do not love holiness; consequently, whenever their mind is arrested, whenever their ears and judgment are unstopped, till they hear the voice of God calling to them as sinners to live, then it is their privilege to return. See John's Gospel v, 25: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, the hour is coming and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that hear shall live." Here is the evidence upon which I found the remarks just made. I learn from Ephesians ii, 1: "That sinners are dead in trespasses and sin." I would be much pleased to know how much labor a dead man can perform? The dead man in religion can perform nothing. I learn moreover, when the Holy Ghost is speaking in regard to our condition as sinners: "That when ye were yet without strength, in due time Christ died." How much weaker can a man be than to be without strength; can he do anything, can he even turn his eyelids without strength? I see some doctors here who understand anatomy, perhaps they can tell whether a man can be weaker than he is, when he is without strength; the Holy Ghost says they are dead in sin, and without strength; and I say God never has required them to exercise faith in him while in that condition. I repeat God never has, and never can, require individuals to exercise faith in him, in Jesus Christ, in that condition: for this reason, God never requires spiritual action from natural agents, but only requires spiritual action from spiritual agents. Consequently, before the sinner can exercise spiritual faith or any of the Christian graces, he must become spiritual. To wind up the matter, in regard to repentance, my brother tells you, men possess the volition of will, and that they can repent. I propose to show that he is greatly mistaken. Turn to Acts v, 31; you will there find this language: when speaking of the exhortation of the Son of God, the apostle says: "Him hath God exalted with his right hand, to be a Prince and Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins." Now, if that was the mission of Christ, the sinner can not perform till he gives repentance.
(Time expired.)
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