Benoni Stinson's Second Speech
on the Second Proposition
THIRD DAY'S DISCUSSION.
STINSON'S SECOND SPEECH,
ON THE SECOND PROPOSITION.
After the President had read the proposition, "That man is a moral agent, capable of choosing or refusing eternal salvation, as is proposed in the gospel," Mr. Stinson said:
Mr. President, Ladies and Gentlemen:--I rise before you, this morning, to proceed with the investigation of this subject, and I propose commencing where we quit on yesterday. You remember I made a speech of one hour's length, explaining my views of the matter, and that my worthy opponent followed me in a speech of the same length. This morning I intended to notice in his speech what I regard as being relevant, as far as I am able; and then introduce what evidence may occur to my mind, in support of the proposition. I shall have to do this in half an hour, and you will pardon me for attempting to crowd in this space, matters that might demand a more minute investigation. Elder Hume commenced his reply, by admitting the point of argument I had made in the first forty minutes of my disclosure. The report will show what points they were. If I understood him correctly, however, he admitted all that had reference to agency, or freedom of the will, but objected to that part of it which gave man the power of choosing eternal life. This being so, the discussion of to-day becomes limited. I rise with the satisfaction of having established two prominent points in my affirmative. Elder Hume told us that he fully indorsed the moral powers of man. He explains himself, by telling us that he has the power to conform to morality, to be a moral man, a good man, morally speaking. He makes another declaration with regard to God's dealings with man, as a moral agent. That God never did require from man an impossibility, or, in other words, that man was capable always of obeying or of doing what God commanded him to do, at the time the commandment was given. Is not that it, brother Hume. [Hume--That's it.]
Bear in mind this point; and here I would remark, without indulging in any levity, knowing the firmness of my opponent, as I do, I think I have come nearer to converting him than I expected at the start.
After his allusion to the first forty minutes of my address, he then notices some of my quotations. A part of them he finds in the Old Testament; and forsooth, because in the Old Testament, though the language is positive on the doctrine of choosing, he tells us that from the fact of their being connected with the Jewish dispensation, they are no evidence, and disposes of them all. The job is easily done; to declare evidence is out of place, because quoted as having taken place under the old dispensation. Elder Hume has been very particular to contend, during this discussion, that God is unchangeable; that what he loves once, he loves forever, what he hates once he hates forever; that he is always of one mind. Apply this rule to my quotation--did God understand the power of choosing, under the old dispensation, as different from the power of choosing under the new? I ask how much more power would be necessary to enable a man to choose, under the new dispensation than under the old? For the life of me, I can not see this point. If it should be admitted to be different, I should conclude that it required greater power to make a correct choice under the old than under the new dispensation--on account of the intricacy and darkness of the old one. The new one professes to bring light, to make things plainer, and that I may not mislead you on this point, I will say that Paul says, that there is a vail yet over us when we read Moses; but that, that vail or darkness is taken away in Christ, under the new dispensation; so, I contend, that my quotations were not out of place, on account of being under the old dispensation. He told us that if we could show where Cain had chosen eternal life, under the gospel dispensation, he would surrender the point. Well, we will try to show that. He then passes all my proofs, having, as he supposes, successfully set them all aside; he then tries to put us on an entirely new subject, by taking our minds off the one in question, and telling us he knows he will displease the audience. He knows the majority will be against him. And he introduces more than once the fact that he has always consoled himself with the reflection that the good and the righteous have always been a minority. I do not think he has been quite definite enough in this matter; whether he means that he is right, because Christianity has always been in the minority, or whether he believes his denomination are right, because they are in the minority; does he mean all Christians? [Hume--That is my view.] He explains himself, and I am glad of it; how, then, could he expect to displease the audience--only the dark and unenlightened on the subject. But to the subject: he tell us that there is a people that God never did, and never can love; that he hated them, and that Christ never died for them, and that they never can be saved. What that had to do with the proposition, I could not see. He commenced by noticing Ishmael, as the head of one of these God-hated nations; and Esau, as the head of another. I do not remember that he introduced any others, as heads of nations, of this kind, but of the descendants of these two, he declares that God hated them, and that Christ never died for them, and that they never can be saved. Mark well, that he takes them up as nations, which term includes all their posterity.
[Here a sentence is left out. It was accidentally blotted by the inkstand falling. It was not of great importance in the argument, but referred to God sending his angel to Rebecca and to Agar to comfort them. Its omission will not detract much from the argument.--REP.]
If he has taken a correct view of the matter, here are two nations hated of God, denied all privileges, damned forever. Did Rachel weep for her children under the bloody edict of Herod; then must we suppose that the mothers of Enoch and Ishmael had no similar sympathy? Look at the matter--the infant, the babe that breathes but two minutes, or two days, after it is born into the world, dies, and where does it go? Why, every infant, that died in infancy, of the nations of Ishmael and Esau, are hopelessly damned world without end. "Oh tell it not in Gath, publish it not in Askelon." I will not appeal to the sympathies of the audience, but proceed.
He introduced a text from the prophecy of Isaiah xiv, 19, to prove the existence of this God- hated nation. This morning I have examined his text, and I discover that the people spoken of were the Jews, in their wicked state; with one exception, which alludes to the king of Babylon. He then goes into the New Testament, and finds the same generation of vipers among the scribes and pharisees; Jesus saith unto them, "Ye generation of vipers, ye serpents, how can you escape the damnation of hell?" Now, mark, were these scribes and pharisees Ishmaelites--were they the sons of Esau? No, my brother, they were part of God's elect; they were part of God's chosen people; they were Jesus Christ's own, that he came to, but they received him not. So much for that quotation. The language of John the Baptist is precisely similar; he says, what need ye say we have Abraham to our father, which shows that they were the seed of Abraham, the elect of God. He then brings us to Peter, where he also finds this generation of vipers. In Heb. iii, 10, wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, they do always err in their heart, and they have not known my ways. Now, that generation, he would have us believe, was the generation of vipers that God hated. Paul quotes from the Old Testament, wherefore I was grieved with that generation, for they do always err in their heart, and have not known my ways. [Hume: Read the next verse.] "And I swear in my wrath they shall not enter into my rest." In the 17th verse we will get a little light on it; it reads, "But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcasses fell in the wilderness?" 18th verse, "And to whom swear he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believe not;" (and now the 19th), "so we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief."
So much, then, for this God-hated generation. Again, with reference to the passage, 2 Peter, 2:12, 13, 14, "But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not, and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; and shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the daytime; spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings, while they feast with you; having eyes full of adultery and that can not cease from sin, beguiling unstable souls; a heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children." I will also read the next verse, "which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray." Mark, they had forsaken the right way, which shows that they had once been in the right way, and therefore they could not be the generation of vipers, as he presented them. The 21st verse says, "For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered into them." Bear my reply in mind, and see to what man may resort in argument against a plain proposition.
(Time expired.)
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