Joel Hume's First Affirmative Speech
on His First Proposition
FOURTH DAY'S DISCUSSION.
HUME'S FIRST ADDRESS
ON THE FIRST OF HIS PROPOSITIONS.
The President read the following proposition as the subject of discussion, of which Elder Hume was the affirmant, and Elder Stinson the negative:
PROPOSITION.--That the elect of God or church of Christ was chosen in him, before the foundation of the world, and that Christ died for them only, and that all that Christ died for will be eternally saved.
Gentlemen Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen:--I appear before you on this occasion as the affirmant of the proposition that has just been read in your hearing. You will, no doubt, have discovered that it is a compound proposition, embracing three different and very important points: First. The doctrine of election or choice. Second. The doctrine of the atonement. Third. The doctrine of the final perseverance of the saints. Each point contains matter sufficient to occupy the little talent I possess for at least one day. So you discover I shall have to do in one day what I ought to have three days to perform. This being the case, the evidence must necessarily be compounded also. To hunt out evidence for each one of these points in the proposition would be next to impossible; consequently the proof will be compounded and introduced to meet each of the three general points set out in the proposition as I progress. I have agreed to affirm that the elect of God or church of Christ was chosen in him before the foundation of the world, and that the Saviour or Messiah died for them only, and that those characters for whom he died will be eternally saved. The doctrine I propose to believe could not be more fully set forth in so many words. It will be my business to-day to prove this proposition if I can. I have, up to this time, been on the negative. How far I succeeded in that position is left for you to say; and how far I may succeed as the affirmant will also be left for you to say. I have no other evidence to introduce but what is found in the sacred scriptures. Most likely three fourths of my time in the first hour will be devoted to quotation from scripture. [A thought has just occurred to my mind that will break the thread of my discourse. I wish to offer an explanation for a remark that I made yesterday, which, as I have been told by my friends, has made rather an unfavorable impression upon the mind of some. The remark was made to Brother Stinson that if there was a little more eye-salve of divine grace applied he might see a little more clearly. The impression with some is that I desired to convey the idea that Brother Stinson was not a Christian. I simply designed to convey this idea: if he had a little more light he might be able to see a little more clearly the point I thought I saw. I have never called in question, neither do I now, the Christianity of our brother. Neither shall I question the purity of his motives till I get reasons I have not now. With these remarks I will proceed to introduce such testimony as I may have.]
We will invite your attention in the first place to Deut. vii, 6, 7, 8: "For thou art a holy people unto the Lord thy God. The Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you because ye were more in number than any people, for ye were the fewest of all people. But because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the Lord brought you out of the house of bondmen from the hand of Pharaoh, king of Egypt." Notice in that text there is the doctrine of choice and redemption; so you see it will enable us to divide the evidence on these points in following out the language of the proposition. Here we have a positive declaration that God has chosen that people, and has a peculiar affection for them. Deut. xxxii, 9: "For the Lord's portion is his people. Jacob is the lot of his inheritance." We take the ground that a man's portion is the whole of what he possesses, and the lot of his inheritance conveys the same idea. Here, then, we have it emphatically stated that there is a people that is the Lord's portion, a people that is the lot of the inheritance of the Lord. We naturally receive the idea from these facts that the church of God in type is here presented. This is beautifully carried out and taught in the New Testament, as we shall be able to show before we set down. Ezekiel xxxiv, 30, 31: "Thus shall they know that I, the Lord their God, am with them, and that they, even the house of Israel, are my people, saith the Lord God. And ye, my flock of my pasture, are men, and I am your God, saith the Lord God." Isaiah xl, 10, 11: "Behold the Lord God will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him. Behold his reward is with him, and his work before him. He shall feed his flock like a shepherd; he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young." You will discover God's affection for his people is taught here. The doctrine of atonement, of freeing from guilt, is clearly set forth and taught here as being an act of the great Jehovah, and according to the language of the prophet, it is in the 'past tense.' That the people may understand it, I will read it again. [After reading the two verses again Elder Hume proceeded.] This is a particular point to which I direct your attention. I remark that if Jerusalem is designed to represent the church of God, if it is designed to represent the elect of God, then we have this very important idea: that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned; for he says, in first and second verse of the same chapter, Isaiah xl, 1, 2 (I will read them): "Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God; speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned, for she hath received of the Lord's hand double for all her sins." We take the ground that where iniquity is pardoned there is no power to condemnation; consequently justification is the result, and salvation follows. I will read Isaiah xli, from the 8th to the 14th verse: "But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend. Thou whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thee from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee, Thou art my servant, I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away. Fear thou not: for I am with thee; be not dismayed, for I am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness. Behold, all they that were incensed against thee shall be ashamed and confounded; they shall be as nothing; and they that strive with thee shall perish. Thou shalt seek them, and shalt not find them, even them that contended with thee; they that war against thee shall be as nothing, and as a thing of nought. For I the Lord thy God will hold thy right hand, saying unto thee, Fear not; I will help thee. Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the Lord, and thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel." If the doctrine of choice, of God's choice, is not taught here, then I would like to see the passage in God's word where it is taught.
Turn to forty-third chapter of the same, from the first to the seventh verse: "But now, thus saith to Lord that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, fear not; for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name, thou art mine. When thou passeth through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the river, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burnt; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee. For I am the Lord thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Savior: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Sheba for thee. Since thou wast precious in my sight, thou hast been honorable, and I have loved thee: therefore will I give men for thee, and people for thy life. Fear not; for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west; I will say to the north, give up; and to the south, keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth; even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I formed him; yea, I have made him."
It will never be in the compass of my power (because I am not inspired) to set forth, in so many words, the doctrine I entertain, which is set forth here. Here we have it emphatically declared that God's heart and affections are for that people, and that he has redeemed them. The doctrine of redemption is emphatically taught here; he has saved all of those people. My object, in dwelling upon this, is to show how that the doctrine of choice and redemption precisely fit together, and that the whole of the inspired writers could have reference to no other than the Church of God, in this particular. Forty-fourth chapter of the same, first and second verses: "Yet now hear, O Jacob, my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen: thus saith the Lord that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; fear not, O Jacob my servant; and thou, Jeshurun, whom I have chosen."
Here again we have the doctrine of election and of choice, set forth. Jehovah declares that this is a sovereign act of his, and what he has done in connection with that act of choice is ultimately to save that people, as our proposition presents; for this is what we intend to show. I will now give you a quotation, without chapter or verse, it is this: "This people I have formed for myself, and they shall show forth my praise." Connect that language with what we have just read, and I ask you this question: If you can be persuaded to believe that there can be any possibility of failure in the salvation of that people, you cannot, unless it can be made to appear that God will change, with all these repeated promises of his divine affection, of his intention of mercy toward them; I ask you, can you possibly believe that God will fail to carry out what he has said he will do?
I propose now, to introduce the twenty-first and twenty-second verses of the same: "Remember these, O Jacob and Israel; for thou art my servant: I have formed thee; thou art my servant: O Israel, thou shalt not be forgotten of me. I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee."
You will notice the doctrine of atonement is here declared; it is what he had done, not what he will do, by-and-by, but what he has emphatically done; that is to say, he has blotted out, as a cloud, their sins; as a thick cloud their transgressions; and in view of that important truth, he calls upon them, he calls upon the kings of the earth to shout and give praise to the name of God, for he has redeemed Jacob, and glorified himself in Israel. It will not do to say, that these prophecies are all confined to the land of Judea, for it is declared in the New Testament that they are not all Israel, which are of Israel. We take it for granted, that this is the Church of God, in type. So far as the name of Jacob and Israel is concerned, it represents the living in Jerusalem--the family of them that were chosen, before the world was.
I will quote from the forty-fifth chapter of Isaiah: "That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none besides me: I am the Lord and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."
Now my object, in that quotation, is to show this fact, that Jehovah is sovereign, that whatever his divine mind intends to accomplish, he does. He presents the idea of his sovereignty here, not only that he loves Jacob, and that he has redeemed Israel, but that at the same time he forms darkness and creates light, makes peace and creates evil.
A word of explanation here. I do not suppose that the word evil here means sin. I suppose that every plague and affliction, sent upon mankind, are evils; and allow me to add the present distracted state of our country is an evil; but the question is this, is there sin in it?
Now, I do not intend to convey the idea that God is the author of sin; but that divers afflictions, such as pain and death, come from the hand of God. We will now read from the seventeenth verse of the same chapter: "But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded, world without end." In these words we have the matter settled beyond all possibility of dispute. You will be apt to notice, that in the quotation are some names mentioned, you will find in these words: "Israel shall be saved." It would seem that we might let the whole matter rest here, if it be admitted that Israel means the Church of God. If we admit that Israel meant the people of God, then we have the matter settled, that Israel shall be, not may be saved. Perhaps, my brother will say, Mr. Hume, you have not given it all, because you did not say, anything about the seed of Israel. We have it said, however, that Israel shall be saved. Well, notice the twenty-fifth verse of the same chapter, you will find these words: "In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory." Not that it shall so apply to them that they may in course of time be led to rejoice, but it says they shall glory in the Lord. Now see sixty-first chapter of Isaiah and ninth verse: "And their seed shall be known among the gentiles, and their offspring among the people: all that see them, shall acknowledge them; that they are the seed which the Lord hath blessed."
We have it here distinctly stated that in regard to this family, even the gentiles themselves shall be compelled to believe that they are the seed that the Lord hath blessed. There is no doubting this matter--here is a family, who did not believe, but who are compelled to believe that these are the people, whom the Lord hath blessed.
I now make a requisition. I desire in my heart that every child of God here, I care not what your names are, if you believe on Jesus Christ, I ask you to read that chapter--the sixty-second of Isaiah. I will simply read the first three verses: "For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake will I not rest until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth; and the gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory, and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the Lord shall name. Thou shalt also be a crown of glory in the hand of the Lord, and a royal diadem in the hand of thy God." We discover, here, that our Heavenly Father thinks more of this family than of any other--that his divine affection is centered upon them. In the 63d chapter, we have a beautiful contrast to the family presented the other day, the one that doeth evil continually. See 8th and 9th verses: "For he said, surely they are my people--children that will not lie; so he was their Savior. In all their afflictions he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them; in his love and in his pity he redeemed them, and he bare them and carried them through all the days of old." Here, you see, the doctrine of redemption is taught, and you notice that not only is this God's peculiar people, but also that they are redeemed; for in his love and pity he hath redeemed them -- not that he will do it, if they will do their part, but it is already done. I ask, now, to make a quotation that I have not noted. Daniel says: "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy." "After sixty-two weeks shall Messiah be cut off;" not for himself, but for this people for whom he is making reconciliation.
Now, turn to Jeremiah xxxi, 3: "The Lord hath appeared unto me of old, saying: yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love; therefore, with loving kindness have I drawn thee." I ask you, my friends, who these people are that he has loved with an everlasting love; if you say it is the race, I ask, how can God love them in hell? But, hark! says the gentlemen, everlasting means only a little time. I understand the term everlasting to extend before time and after time. If this be correct, we have this important fact presented, that God loves these people before time and beyond time, consequently his loving kindness is never at an end. Again, see the 32d and 38th to 41st verses. "And they shall be my people and I will be their God. And I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear me forever, for the good of them and of their children after them. And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them to do them good, but I will put my fear in their hearts that they shall not depart from me; yea, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will plant them in this land assuredly, with my whole heart and with my whole soul." Here we have the doctrine reaffirmed, that he never intends this people to depart from him. Here, then, the last item in my proposition is proved, that the final perseverance of the saints is true, unless God withdraws his love on some occasion from the same individuals. 1 Chronicles xvi, 13: "O ye seed of Israel, his servant; ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones." His chosen ones; his elect ones-- my proposition says the elect of God or Church of Christ, and in this verse that chosen family is presented; consequently my proposition is fully maintained, not only from this verse, but from all the others I have introduced. Again, Psalm xxxiii, 12: "Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord, and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance." Is there no confirmation in that? The people whom he hath chosen--elected for his own inheritance; the people that he delights to own; the people that he loves to bless, and that he intends to save, as is said in Isaiah, with an everlasting love. I shall, perhaps, make proof out of some passages you would not expect me to introduce. Matt. xxiv, 22-24: "And except those days should be shortened, there would be no flesh saved, but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." Who are the elect? The family we have presented--Israel. Matt. xxiv, 31, says: "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." As this is to be read, I shall not take up much time in talking upon the texts. Mark x, 45: "For even the son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many." Here, permit me to remark, that we have had considerable argument about the meaning of the word all. I propose to show that the term "many," used is this passage, does not mean ALL. He gives his life a ransom, not for all but for many--not for everybody, but for some portion, that is the idea I get from it as I make the quotation. See Mark xiii, 20, 22 and 27. [As the language of these three verses has just been given in the quotation from Matt. xxiv, they are not inserted. The reader is referred to them.-- REPORTER.] I argue that it is impossible not to see that the doctrine of election and redemption is taught here. Here you see, for the sake of the elect, those days shall be shortened; and if it were possible deceivers should deceive the very elect, which is as much as to say it is not possible to do so. The idea of its being impossible is clearly presented here. We will now turn to Luke xix, 10. This has been read once before, but I want it in this place; it reads: "For the son of man has come to seek and to save that which was lost." With a simple question, I will pass along. It is, do you believe, dear, dying friend, that the work is done? One of two things you must admit, either the Saviour did do the work, or he did not. If he did do it, our position is maintained. If he did not, then the work is not yet done, and he comes and dies no more, and there remaineth no more sacrifice for sin. If the son of man did save that which was lost, we take it for granted that the lost means the people of Israel, the people whom God loves with an everlasting love. Again, John x, 11: "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd giveth his life for his sheep." Also the 15th verse: "As the father knoweth me, even so know I the father, and I lay down my life for the sheep." I ask you, have I not proved special atonement, unless you can make it appear that everybody are sheep? Christ says positively that he lays down his life for his sheep. Oh, but, says our worthy brother, Christ says, "other sheep have I." Yes, but he don't say other goats have I. Who are these other sheep? God's family among the gentiles. "They also must I bring, and they shall (not that they will, but they shall) hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one shepherd."
I will introduce another text upon the doctrine of election--John xiii, 18: "I speak not of you all; I know whom I have chosen: but that he scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me." Here the Saviour says, I did not choose you all, or I am not speaking to you all; I know whom I have elected. John xv, 16: "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that you should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain; that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you." I understand Elder Stinson to say, that the election or salvation of the sinner depends upon the sinner; but Jesus says, you have not chosen me, but I have elected or chosen you; not only chosen you, but ordained you. What for? That ye may go and bring forth fruit, that shall remain. Here is the final perseverance of the saint; not only perseverance, but whatsoever you shall ask in my name, he will give it to you. John xv, 19: "If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you."
If I were to take the course that Christ took, or say what he said, I should get a worse name than I have now. Hear what he says in John xvii, 9: "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine." What is the language? "I pray not for them; I pray not for the world." Did Christ die for the world, and then refuse to pray for it? Will Christ suffer for the world, and then refuse to pray for the world? I pray not for the world, but for those that thou hast given me out of the world; those thou hast chosen; those thou hast elected out of the world: they were thine, and thou hast given them to me. Acts xiii, 48: "And when the gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." I suppose the reason why the rest did not believe, was because they were not ordained to eternal life; for the text says as many as were ordained believed. Acts xx, 28: "Take heed, therefore, unto yourselves, and to all the flock over which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the Church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood." I am well aware of the play that my worthy brother will make over the proposition. He will not deny anything I have advanced; but his whole strength will be employed to show you I have failed to find the word ONLY in the Bible, in this connection. I admit the word is not there; but is the doctrine there? That's the question. Could any language be clearer? Take heed unto yourselves to feed the Church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood, etc. I reckon that Israel shall be saved, and all of his seed shall be justified. Read Romans iv, 25: "Who was delivered for our offenses, and was raised again for our justification." Here we have the matter distinctly settled in regard to what is to be done by the death of Christ. It is so clear that the honest mind can not reject the evidence. The apostle here says he was delivered for our offenses, and raised again for our justification. If this means the race, Christ was not only delivered for the redemption of that race, but for the justification of that race; and if they are justified, heaven is their home--the home of all.
(Time expired.)
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