Joel Hume's First Speech on the Second Proposition.
HUME'S FIRST REPLY,ON THE SECOND PROPOSITION.
Gentlemen Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen:--In rising, I would ask the president to read the proposition. [After the proposition had been read, Mr. Hume continued.]
I have arisen before you, on this occasion, to take the negative of the proposition, which has just been affirmed in your hearing. And in doing so, I think, that I feel deeply interested in your having a correct understanding of the subject matter thus presented. For about the first forty minutes, of my friend's speech, he traveled but very little out of my view of the matter he was discussing. There is but very little in that which is objectionable. But the reason why I desired the reading of the proposition, was from the consideration of this fact: you will find presented there the idea of man's possessing the power of "choosing or refusing eternal salvation." That is the matter you are to notice. But as it respects the moral power of man, as it respects their intellectual abilities or facilities, I, perhaps, think as highly of them as my friend, Elder Stinson. Indeed, the wisdom of men, as developed in the arts and sciences of the age, is very deep and profound, and deserves a great deal of respect. And it seems from the evidence before us, that it is hardly possible for us to conceive that height of wisdom men may finally reach, and what may be accomplished by them. The elder might have saved himself that forty minutes' labor, if he had just turned round and asked me if I admitted it. But did he, in any of the inferences, present the argument or the text, that said that this volition embraced eternal life? Is there a single item there, was there a single text introduced to prove that men possessed the power to choose or refuse "eternal salvation." That is what I deny. Not the power or ability to choose in moral matters, for I believe they possess the power; they do not only possess the power, but it is their duty to exercise it. Upon this subject I have had many arguments, and I have maintained, during my little experience, that all men, everywhere in gospel lands, have the power to live a more honest and upright life, and ought to do it. Consequently no man need come to me with an apology for his bad conduct, and say, he could not help doing so, for I don't believe him. The man that is in the habit of getting intoxicated, and cursing and swearing, or that is in the habit of any immorality, no matter what, possesses the power to lay the habit aside; does not only possess the power, but if he has the respect he ought to have for himself, will do it; not because he is expected by doing so to work his passage to heaven. No, verily, but that he might render himself and family more respectable and happy, and set them an example that would be worthy the imitation of all who knew him. But let me ask you, is that religion? Is that the first step toward Christianity? I maintain that every man ought to be a moral man--but I make a further remark, that is this: that every truly pious man is a moral man, but that every truly moral man is not truly a pious man.
What argument has he introduced to show that these individuals can choose or refuse eternal salvation? That is the proposition. If he has introduced one, I will try to find it; however, I have no doubt in the least, but that if it were possible for us to get the voices of the masses, that he could prove by nine out of every ten, that he was right; yes, I am well aware that I am largely in the minority. But I remember another thing, that there was a time when the King of kings and Lord of lords had but twelve disciples among the whole race, and they were very unpopular. I recollect a time like that. Consequently their being in the minority is no argument that they were wrong. We further remark, that from that day the people of God, the world over, have been in the minority, under all circumstances. But I have this consolation in the language of my Savior: "Fear not little flock, for it is your father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom;" not sell it to you for work. And the exhortation is to fear not, for it is his pleasure to give you the kingdom, etc. Consequently I do not feel discouraged, because I am in the minority; but as to whether we are in the minority or not is not the question. But does the Bible teach that the race of men possess the power of choosing or refusing eternal salvation, as proposed in the gospel? I, for my part, deny their having any such power; and in view of my extreme ignorance or want of human sympathy on the subject, my dear old friend is remarkably sorry for Mr. Hume. I would just say, I thank him for his sympathy, but don't believe his doctrine.
Man is not now what he once was. He was, at one time, good; and it is also true that he was in the image of his Creator. I know not by what authority our aged father (Stinson) says he was not is the image of God physically; suffice it to say, he was in the image of God--made after his likeness. The apostle has declared that he is the express image of his person. Allow me, however, to suggest an idea as to the likeness that the first man possessed to the character of God. In giving this idea, I do not give it as gospel truth, nor even as regular Baptist doctrine. But, as there was a Trinity in the Godhead, so, in like manner, there is a trinity in manhood. In the Godhead, there was the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. In manhood, there is the Man, the Bride and the Posterity. Allow me to present this idea, so far as man sustains it in his character to his Maker. I have an objection to my brother, that he (man) sustains it in a moral point of view--that in coming out of the hand of God, he was free from sin. How is he now, and has been for ages? Doubtless he is in a very different situation to what he was then. Then he was good, and somehow he has become bad; and our friend told us, in a former speech, that Adam's sin ran through all the race. Now, if this be a fact, mankind, in consequence of the sin of the first man, have become contaminated; then I ask, is not his mind, his judgment restrained and darkened, and does not the Bible declare, not only these facts, but that he is dead in trespasses and sins? If this be so, you see man is not now what he was then; consequently, what he then possessed the power to do, he does not now possess the power to do. And here, I will remark, that God never, at any time, nor under any circumstances, required anything of any man which they or he were unable to comply with. Then, when God made this requisition on man, he was perfectly able to obey God. If we inquire why he did not, we learn that he said of his wife, "Thou gavest unto me, and I did eat." [We men often love to fix the blame on our wives, if we can.] "I ate; having disobeyed God, I fell under the curse of his law." What is their condition? The Bible tells us that, for the first time, they discovered they were naked. "Now they see their nakedness," says the Bible. What is the result? They are a good deal like our old father here; they go to work right away to fix up garments--they made themselves aprons of fig leaves: now, I have been told that the fig leaf has about as little substance in it as anything --it crumbles and dries away as soon as it is made; and just so with our brother's works. Well, what did Jehovah do? Did he tell them to go to work, and make garments? No; but Jehovah himself took skins, and made garments for them. Did he tell them to put them on? No; but he both made the coats, and put them on them. If this proves anything, it proves that this is a figure of the righteousness of Jesus Christ; and if a sinner wears this coat, Jehovah must put it on him. Thus, you see, man is not now what he once was.
Our friend labored very hard to make you believe that God loved Cain--had some portion of affection for him. If you will turn to 1 John, iii, 8: "He that committeth sin is of the devil, for the devil sinneth from the beginning," etc.; now, verse 12: "Not as Cain who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother." What, then, is the meaning of the term "of?" Here it means belonging to, or descending from. Now, says John, this man was "of that wicked one." But Elder Stinson told us, that every man did not only believe, but did most assuredly KNOW that he possessed the ability to obey God.
I now ask your attention to Romans iii, 10 to 18 inclusive: "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not, one. Their throat is an open sepulchre: with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: their feet are swift to shed blood: destruction and misery are in their ways: and the way of peace they have not known: there is no fear of God before their eyes."
Now, I ask, can you believe what the elder said a little while ago, that you not only believe, but positively know that you have the power to obey? Has not the apostle examined man from his head to the sole of his foot, and does he not tell you that "there is none that doeth good, no, not one?" The reason is, because there is no fear of God before their eyes. Read and examine for yourself.
The gentleman seemed to think that the opposite of his views were our views, that we believed that bad conduct was unavoidable, and that therefore man was not responsible. I will acknowledge that I know but very little, but I am unwilling for Elder Stinson to tell me what the Regular Baptists believe.
[STINSON--I did not say you believed it.]
I will remark, therefore, as I did before, that we do believe men possess the moral power to perform moral acts, and are in duty bound to perform them; but my remark was, that is not religion.
In regard to the quotation from Leviticus iii, 19. This address was made to ancient Israel; they were God's national people, requiring an offering or sacrifice, by which their sons, as a nation, were to be atoned for. If my friend will show such a declaration to the gentile nations of the earth, if he can find the offer of eternal life in connection with such declaration, I will submit. I believe that every man on earth can obey the will of God upon condition that he first feels it a duty, and that he will be rewarded or punished for obeying or disobeying; for you know when you do your duty, you realize peace of mind in regard to temporal things. So it was with ancient Israel. Their enjoyment of peace as a nation depended upon the performance of these conditions; but in regard to our future and eternal salvation, that is a fixed fact in the law of God.
With reference to the quotation from Luke: "And that servant which knew his Lord's will and prepared not himself," etc.
Is that man any other but a servant of God? No. Consequently this passage does not refer to anybody but the servants of God. You that know and do not do it, etc., can not be made to apply anywhere else.
In regard to the will, every man possesses a will in moral matters, to do or not to do. The Savior says (and this brings to mind an admission I made, that they can not, because they will not), "Ye will not come unto me." Why did they not come? Simply, because they have not got the will. I ask you if they have to become possessed of one, how will they get it? In God's name, I ask, will they ever come till they get a will, and if they have not got a will now, how and from whom will they get it? There is not an individual here but will acknowledge this fact, that if I get a will I have not had, I must get it as a gift from Jehovah, for I have no power to change my soul or will, any more than to change my physical organization--neither have you. Then, I take it, the will to perform good (religious) actions, must come from God, for in nature we have not known God, being dead in trespasses and sin, being blindfolded and without the spirit of divine love. But of all his quotations, I was most perfectly astounded to hear the one from Joshua xxiv, 15.
If I fail to make every lady and gentlemen believe as I do on this passage, it will be because of unlimited prejudice against me. I now remark that this is another expression delivered by Jehovah to Israel and not to the gentile nations. God never made such an address to them. I ask, why did he not quote the whole passage? Just read it; it will explain itself. That verse begins in this way: "If it seem evil to you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve" (whether God or the devil. No, sir. Well, then, how is it?), "whether the gods which your fathers served, that were on the other side of the flood; or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell; but as for me and my house we will serve the Lord." There is not a single sentence here about serving the God of the Bible; hence, if it seem evil to you, then choose between these two systems of idolatry, whether the gods your father served, or the gods of the Amorites. The idea is this, if you do not serve the God of the Bible, you may just as well serve the one as the other. Moses, he said, chose rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season. Why did Moses make that choice? Because he was already a servant of the most high God; and every true servant of the God on earth chooses rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season. That is the reason why they submit to be mocked at, that is the reason why they stand identified with the people of God, whose sorrows they make their sorrows, whose joys are their joys, whose hopes are their hopes, and if they die, we die with them; hence, "I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness."
The other quotation referred to by our brother, in the historical account of the prophet Elijah, was a special address made to the children of Israel, and not to the gentile nations, under any circumstances: "Why halt ye between two opinions?" Show me that it is a disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ that it is standing outside of the house of God, and I will say to him, why halt ye between two opinions; why not come into the Messiah's army while it is marching on its way to the world of everlasting glory? Why halt ye between merchandise and the cross of Christ; why halt ye between the gods of silver and the cross of Christ? Lay all these things down and come to the help of the Lord against the mighty. Here is where the passage belongs.
I undertake to prove (but first let me remark, that well do I know that as soon as I have made my remarks, that the heart of every ungodly person here will rise up in anger against me because I take the ground, that there is a family brought to view in the Bible that the eternal God never did love, and never intended to save).
[A voice in the audience--that is a bitter pill.]
I know it; nevertheless, the Holy Ghost has given his word for its truth, and let me die in its defense. Now, for the proof. Turn to Gen. xvi, 11,12: "And the angel of the Lord said unto her, thou art with child and shalt bear a son, and shall call his name Ishmael, because the Lord hath heard thy affliction; and he will be a wild man, his hand will be against every man and every man's hand against him, and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren." Is that one of God's family? was that one of those God loved so well?
Is that one of the individuals Christ died for? Mark the language--his hand shall be against every man, and every man's hand shall be against him. Now turn to Gen. xxv, and read the 32d, 33d and 34th verses: "And Esau said, behold, I am at the point to die; and what profit shall this birthright do to me? And Jacob said, swear to me this day; and he sware unto him: and he sold his birthright unto Jacob. Then Jacob gave unto Esau bread and pottage of lentiles; and he did eat and drink, and rose up, and went his way. Thus Esau despised his birthright." We intend to trace them again. Deut. xxxii, 5: "They have corrupted themselves: their spot is not the spot of his children; they are a perverse and crooked generation." Now read the 24th and 25th verses of the same: "They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust. The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs."
If you will find such a text as that in regard to the children for Israel, God's chosen people, I will set down and acknowledge that I am completely whipped in this discussion. Now to Isaiah xiv, 19, 20: "But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the remnant of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the pit as a carcass trodden under foot. Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land and slain thy people; the seed of evil doers shall never be renowned." Again, Isaiah lvii, 3, 4: "But draw near hither, ye sons of the sorceress, the seed of the adulterer and the whore. Against whom do ye sport yourselves? against whom make ye a wide mouth and draw out the tongue? Are ye not the children of transgression, a seed of falsehood?" If any man will show me a text where Jehovah's family are termed the seed of falsehood, I will give up. It is precisely the reverse, for Jehovah declares by the prophet; he says they are my "people--children that will not lie." And he is their Savior. But that is not the family we have just been reading about. Again, turn to Malachi i, 2, 3, 4: "And I loved you, saith the Lord; yet ye say, wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother, saith the Lord, yet I loved Jacob and I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragon of the wilderness. Whereas, Edom saith, we are impoverished, but we will return and rebuild the desolate places. Thus saith the Lord of hosts, they shall build, but I will throw down, and they shall call them the border of wickedness, and the people against whom the Lord hath indignation forever." Are these the people of Israel, or are they a people that can be saved by the exercise of the volition of the will, when Jehovah tells you here that he hates Esau, that they are a people against whom he has indignation forever? I know the carnal mind of man is much opposed to this view; but if God has indignation forever against this people, tell me when that indignation will cease; and if God hates them, tell me, will he love them? Look now to Matt. xxiii, 29-36: "Woe unto you scribes and pharisees, hypocrites, because ye build the tombs of the prophets and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, and say, if we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore be ye witness unto yourselves that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets; fill ye up then the measure of your fathers: ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets and wise men and scribes, and some of them ye shall kill and crucify, and some of them ye shall scourge in your synagogues and persecute them from city to city, that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zaccharias, son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar; verily I say unto you all these things shall come upon this generation." I repeat, you can not show me a single text where Jehovah has at any time used such language to his people. But here is a family which he declares to be a generation of vipers; as much as to say, some of you can not escape the damnation of hell. He says, how can they escape it? I suppose my brother here can find out by the exercise of his will. In his reply I want him to notice all these passages; that is the reason I introduce them now. 2 Thess. ii, 10, 11, 12: "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish, because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie; that they all might be damned who believe not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." Here are individuals who present us with the idea that they have the curse of God resting upon them, while I have shown you a family directly opposite. I ask you how it is that this family is not chosen like the other? The apostle says: "God has chosen you;" and they were bound to give thanks to God for it, too.
My friends, I have read and heard a great deal said in my life, about sharing in the glories of the millennium, the time when all nations shall know the Lord, not only so, but when all individuals shall know him. Some tell us that the time is just at hand; but what does the Bible say: Evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. Jehovah says, that in the course of events, evil seducers shall wax worse and worse. I ask, then, where is your hope? Do times grow better? I might compare the state of things now with those of forty years ago, and ask you to tell me if we are on the onward march? I might ask you the question, if things have not got worse and worse? If this is so, if men are waxing worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived; I repeat, man is not now as he once was. Turn to Heb. iii, 9, 10, 11: "When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years; wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said they do always err in their heart, and they have not known my ways; so I swear, in my wrath, they shall not enter into my rest." This is a text which, if the people will believe it, I need not quote another word to upset the whole of my friend's theory on this proposition; that is not the worst of it. I care not what may be his ingenuity, he never can get around it; there is no dodging the question, it is too plain; listen to it: when your fathers tempted me, and proved me, and saw my works forty years, wherefore I was grieved with that generation (what generation was this? why it was the generation of falsehood that had always erred in their hearts); well, what more so, I swear they shall not enter into my rest. I wonder if he will try to dodge that. Here is this generation again, to whom God has indignation forever, they are the representatives of Ishmael and Esau--hard as it may seem, it is true.
[Here a gentleman in the audience remarked that he, Hume, would sugar-coat it over tomorrow; to this Mr. Hume remarked that sugar-coating was very good in it place, it was fitted for children, but would not do for older people.]
Again, see 1 Peter ii, 8: "And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient, where unto also they were appointed." Mark the language. I shall not attempt to comment upon this, but give you the authority of God. He says they were appointed to that disobedience. You fix it up, and sugar-coat it as thick as you like; but, I think, it will have to be pretty thick if it is not licked off again. 2 Peter ii, 12, 13, 14: "But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; and shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that counted it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings, while they feast with you. Having eyes full of adultery, and that can not cease from sin, beguiling unstable souls: a heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children."
I ask again, if that people belong to God's family? We have here men, not only as brute beasts, but they shall be made to be taken and destroyed, and shall perish in their own corruption.
(Time expired.)
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