Mr. Hume's Second Speech on the Fourth Proposition.
GENTLEMEN MODERATORS -- LADIES AND GENTLEMEN:
In the opening of the gentleman's last speech, he gave us another lengthy dissertation upon the subject of good works; and, as such as course is well calculated to prove the doctrine of final apostasy, we will have to indulge him in it, while we believe this audience understands the proposition now before us, too well, to be misled in this way. It is passingly strange, that any man will undertake to prove, that the saints of the most high God can be finally lost; and, become so deranged, that he forgets the proposition entirely, and give his auditors a sermon on the subject of good works. But, such is the dilemma into which Mr. Franklin has fallen. We have several times during this discussion, given our views upon the cause, nature, and design of good works, and, we believe that we have been understood by the audience; and, we now repeat, that we are a strong advocate for the doctrine of good works, as taught in the Bible; but the heterogeneous mass of bombast and trash introduced by the gentleman, in his last speech, as good works, we wholly reject as being without authority in the written word of the Lord; and, we now challenge the gentleman, with all those who are identified with him, to produce one text in all the Bible, to sustain his course upon the subject. The organization of Missionary Boards, Bible Societies, Sunday School Unions, Temperance Societies, and Tract Societies, are all unknown in the Scriptures of eternal truth; they are all the works of men, and as such, we reject the whole of them, as being connected with the subject of good works, as taught in the Bible. Those different organizations may have been designed for good in their origin; but surely they have been made, in many instances, the engines of cruel oppression, even upon the widow and orphan, and are also the means of sustaining a set of lazy, idle demagogues, who are wholly unworthy of the public confidence, and should be treated with perfect contempt wherever they are found. These things we object to, because they are not to be found in the Bible; and, further because their ungodly abettors are ever seeking after legislative enactment, to aid them in their wicked crusade against all those who dare raise their voice against them; who are determined to be free, and will not suffer those greedy dogs to keep their conscience for them. Perhaps the learned gentleman will be willing to drop this subject now, and let us alone. If he should not, he shall hear from us again, in such a manner as we shall deem consistent with truth. We hope the audience have not forgotten the proposition.
The gentleman has undertaken to prove, that any saint in the Church of God can apostatize and be finally lost. In all that he has said, he has not yet introduced one text, that says anything about apostasy, or being finally lost; and, we are sure he will not. We told you in the close of the last speech, that he would not attempt to reply to the plain, pointed Scripture proofs, introduced by us, to prove the negative of his proposition. Well, we prophesied correctly. This should be conclusive evidence, that he cannot answer them to the satisfaction of the audience; and, as such, he passed them in silence. And notwithstanding all this, the gentleman had the assurance to tell the audience that we were entirely defeated. Now, had he said that we were deceived with regard to his ability to discuss the doctrine of the proposition, he would have told the truth, as it is. But, as to our being defeated, we will submit that to the decision of the audience, and not to Mr. Franklin; for, had his word been taken as evidence during this discussion, he would have proven us down here in the swamps of Indiana, a motley set of beings, sure enough. But we are governed by the Bible in this debate, and not by the diction of Elder Franklin.
But he, in the next place, (in order to arouse the sympathies of the people in his favor), tells you that he cannot talk like us. Well, what suppose ye, my audience, can be the reason that our learned and talented friend cannot talk as we can? Is it because his acquired abilities are inferior to ours? Is it because his age and experience are inferior to ours? If we have understood him correctly, it is neither. Well, what, then, can be the reason? It is simply because we are working in the light, and speaking the truth made manifest by the light; consequently it is easy to speak, for God aids men in proclaiming the truth; while my friend is all the while working in darkness, which darkness blinds his mind, and conceals the truth; hence it is difficult for him to get along. And no wonder; for should we attempt to advocate such a system of error and delusion, we could not talk at all.
But my friend wished to know if we would stick to our text. We answer, yes, sir, we will; and stick closely to it too; for our text-book is the Bible, and this is the only book that he seems afraid of; and well he may be afraid of it, for this old Jerusalem blade has two sharp edges, and cuts both ways, and slays Arminianism wherever it is found, and with it we expect to slay Goliath, and lay him dead at our feet.
But he is back to the fifth of Galatians. We have already replied to this connection at some length, and we do not intend to notice it again, for we are not willing to waste ammunition at game already taken.
He in the next place has prophesied our entire defeat upon this proposition. Well, is not this strong proof that the saints of God will finally be lost? Whether it is or not, we leave the audience to judge; while we would remark that we believe our friend is a false prophet, at least in this particular.
But we are again referred to the great danger of saints falling from grace. Now, we have already given our views about saints backsliding, or falling from their steadfastness in the faith, which produces great departures in practice, and very justly brings upon them the chastenings of the Lord; but all this does not prove apostasy, or that saints will be finally lost. Nay, verily; parents do not disown their children because they disobey them, but apply the means of correction, and thereby bring the child to a sense of its duty and obligation to its parents. So with our Heavenly Father. But he hates putting away. The gentleman thinks we are a very strange kind of shepherd to bring our little flock into the midst of a gang of prowling wolves. Now, we were not aware that we had done so, until Elder Franklin was pleased to inform us; for sure it is, we made no such allusion. We really think the audience is under great obligations to the gentleman for the very flattering compliment he has paid them. Our remarks upon this subject were simply these: that it was as much the duty of a shepherd to keep off the dogs and wolves as it was to feed the sheep, for both were necessary to the safety and well-being of the flock, and every one here knows this to be true. But my friend is lost again, and tells the audience that we have made sport of, and sneered at the doctrine of good works. Now we leave the audience to determine whether this charge is true or false, while we shall proceed with the argument.
The gentleman next tells us that faith is the act of the creature -- that all men can believe, and it is their duty to do so. Well, if all this was true, would it prove that the saints of God are finally lost? You know it would not. But the Apostle says that faith is the fruit of the spirit, and that saints believe because of the working of the mighty power of God, which he wrought in Christ when he raised him from the dead. The same doctrine is strongly confirmed in Ephesians, second chapter, 8th and 9th verses: "For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast." Now, you see, my audience, that the Apostle and Elder Franklin are at variance upon this subject, and we choose to believe the Apostle.
But here my friend again says he believes in the doctrine of salvation by grace as much as we do. Well, if he does, why does he not preach it? Truly he has a very strange method of preaching salvation by grace; for he has been crying "Works! works! works!" from the beginning of this discussion until now, and after all, says he has only been jesting, for he believes in salvation by grace as much as we do. We will tell you, friends, that Mr. Franklin's grace has so many "ifs" and "buts" in it, that they knock all the grace out of it, and he is still found to be hard at work, and work he will, until grace teaches him better.
He wishes very much to know whether Christians do not sometimes commit sin? We answer, that in every Christian there are two natures -- the one spiritual, the other natural; the one heavenly, the other earthly; the one loves and adores God, the other loves and practices sin. This unconverted nature does sin, for sin is its element, and this made the Apostle say, "O, wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me," &c. Every child of God upon earth realizes this warfare in a greater or less degree, and they, and they only, understand it, while hypocrites and false prophets know nothing about it.
But the gentleman told us in his last speech, that he knew nothing about a religion that caused so much moaning and distress, and especially such as was found in the thicket. Well, we will not insult the gentlemen by disputing his word upon the subject, for we verily believe he has told the truth. But when he says no other person knows anything about such religion, we must, in all good conscience, contradict him, for we believe there are multiplied thousands who know better. Surely he is to be pitied. But he also told us that he knew nothing about this doctrine of contention in the bosom of Christians. The whole man must be dedicated to God, or he was no Christian. Well, we have no doubt he tells the truth when he says he knows nothing about the warfare; but when he says that others do not, we are again bound to contradict him; and we even go further, and remark that there is not a child of God in all the wide world but what realizes the truth of the language of the Apostle, when he says, "When I would do good, evil is present with me.
But the gentleman has found out, as he says, that we are the advocate of the accursed practice of adultery and fornication, which thing he hates, and God himself hates it. That God himself hates it, we verily believe to be true. We wish we were as well assured that Mr. Franklin hates it. There is one thing, however, that we do know, and that is, that the conduct of Mr. Franklin and his people will not argue more strongly that they hate such base prostitution, than our conduct and that of our people goes to prove that we hate it. And we now say, without wishing to give offense to any, that our people can boast of as much virtue in this particular as any other denomination in all the world; and if it were necessary, we could prove, by persons now in this audience, that this is true, so far as the denominations round about here are concerned at least. And we now say, further, that there is no people under the whole heaven who can boast of more female virtue than the Regular Baptists, and we challenge comparison with all the world.
Now, in conclusion upon this subject, we say that the charge is basely and slanderously false, and could not possibly have originated in purity of motive.
We were next directed to the language of the Savior -- "If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed." Here the gentleman said it was as plain as the sun at noon-day, that if they did not continue in his words, that they should be finally lost. We wish the audience to remember, that this is my Franklin's Scripture, and not found in the Bible. Remember that our Heavenly Father says, "I will never leave thee nor forsake thee." But my friend would fain make you believe that your Father has not told the truth, for he will forsake you if you do not hold out faithful. We are told in Second Peter, first chapter, 4th verse, that saints are made partakers of the divine nature. Now, there is no divine nature, but God alone; hence they are partakers, as we already shown you, of the nature and substance of God; consequently they cannot fall from their own nature and substance, or from the divine nature of which they are made partakers, and hence the doctrine of falling from grace is not true. But we are referred to Galatians, fifth chapter, 19th and 20th verses, in which there is not one word said about grace in any way, much less about saints being finally lost. But my friend has surely forgotten the proposition, for in his whole speech he has never come into the neighborhood of it. Behold him, if you please, yonder in the 18th of Ezekiel, as though he could find a resting place there. We now remark, and we challenge contradiction from any man, Mr. Franklin not excepted, that in this whole chapter there is not a single promise of heaven, or a threat of hell; hence you see that this, like all the rest he has introduced, has nothing to do with the subject before us.
My friend is determined to be of the works of the law in despite of all we can say. But the people of God are not under the law, but under grace; hence the language of the Apostle -- "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us;" hence we and Mr. Franklin are not of the same family, and of course look to different sources for our inheritance.
We were next referred to the case of the rich man and Lazarus. Now, we ask, in the name of all that is sacred, what has this to do with the proposition? Is anything here that proves that the saints of God may be finally lot? No, not one word; and, as such, we shall make no reply.
We have now answered all the gentleman's arguments, and shall proceed to open our battery again, after reminding you that our friend has failed to introduce one text that speaks of final apostasy, or the saints of God being finally lost; neither has he made any reply to the numerous passages introduced by us. He has but two more half-hour speeches, and you will see that he will continue to fail to reply to those positive proofs introduced by us.
We will now invite your attention to the language of the Apostle, recorded in the third chapter of Colossians, third and fourth verses, which reads -- "For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory." Now if there was no other text in all the book of God to prove the final preservation of the saints but the one just quoted, it would be sufficient to satisfy every child of God who is willing to believe the Apostle. It is evident from this text, that before the devil can get one of the saints of God, he must be admitted into heaven itself, and not only so, he must by some means get into the Godhead where Christ is, before he can reach the life of one of God's dear children.
But, revolting to the minds of the Christian as this idea may be, there is still another more contemptible than this, and that is, the devil must dethrone Deity, overpower and captivate the glorious Lamb of God, and drag him down to everlasting burnings, or he will never get one of the saints of the Most High God! And this is still not all; but if the gentleman's theory be true, then the Apostle is found to be a liar; for, says the Apostle, Christ is our life; hence, to get the life of the saint is to get Christ. The Apostle adds, "When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory." Now mark, he does not teach, like Elder Franklin, that if you will continue to perform good works, and hold out faithful to the end, then you shall appear with him. No, verily! But he argues on the ground that Christ is our life; consequently, when he who is our life shall appear, then shall we also appear with him in glory. To this my friend will make no reply.
But read, if you please, in the eighth chapter of Romans, 38th and 39th verses. O, will you listen to the exalted views here given by inspiration! The Apostle says: "For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, not things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Bless the Lord, O my soul, and all the powers that are within me praise his holy name for such glorious consolation as is presented in his blessed word! Here the inspired writer has searched heaven, ransacked hell, and diligently examined all powers, all heights, all depths, and all creatures, and tells us in plain words that none of them, nor all of them combined, shall be able to separate our Father's children from his love. Dear brethren, sisters, and friends, all the devils in hell, combined with all the wicked men upon earth, can never harm you beyond what will be for the glory of God our Father, and for your good; for our blessed Jesus has conquered death, hell, and the grave, and with these, all the enemies of his dear children, and has arisen triumphantly, and ascended gloriously, and is now seated at the right hand of the majesty in the heavens, where he is making intercession for all his dear children.
O, dear friends, will you contemplate the soul-cheering idea, that this Jesus is your Redeemer, that he is your life, and that he, with all his dear saints, will live when death itself is dead! Yes, dear brethren and sisters, be of good comfort, for now is your salvation nearer than when you first believed; and notwithstanding you have had many sore trials to endure, many afflictions to encounter, both of body and mind, yet your blessed Jesus careth for you, and will give you grace to overcome them all. Then bear hardness as good soldiers. What if they do speak evil of you, and call us the filth and offscouring of all things -- this can never harm us, for they called the dear Savior the same. Yes, they even called him Beelzebub! Then we should rejoice at these things, only let us not give any ground for the enemy to speak reproachfully of us. Let us love as Christians ought to love, and live as Christians ought live, and all will be well. Let us remember that by and by our dear Jesus -- our life -- will come again, and in the midst of the wreck of nature and the crush of the world, the redeemed family will ascend up to that kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world, there to enjoy the smiles of our dear Redeemer, world without end.
Time expired.
