Mr. Hume's First Speech on the Fourth Proposition.
GENTLEMEN MODERATORS: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN:--
We are now engaged in the discussion of our last proposition; and, although we have already disposed of three propositions, all of which were very important in themselves, yet none of them possess more intrinsic merit, or was fraught with more vital importance, than the one now before us, which involves a doctrine that is deeply interesting to all the family of God. While a correct understanding of the doctrine involved in the present proposition, is well calculated to comfort, edify, build up, strengthen, and establish, those who have been enabled to hope in the mercy of God. If the doctrine of final apostasy be true, we ought to know it. If our happiness in a future world depends upon our course of conduct in the present world, we should, by all means, know it; and we should also know, what are the character and number of particular works we have to perform, in order to secure a seat in the heavenly kingdom. For, if this doctrine be true, very much depends upon a correct knowledge of what we have to do. But, be it remembered, that this proposition, like those already disposed of, has to be sustained from the Scriptures of eternal truth, or it must fall. Mr. Franklin has affirmed, that any saint in the church of Christ, may apostatize, and be finally lost. This he says he can prove from the Bible; and we suppose, he will try to do it; while it falls to our lot to take the negative, or, to deny the doctrine of final apostasy, and, we might here add, that until Mr. Franklin succeeds in finding some text, to prove his theory, we might remain silent. We will, however, venture to predict, that you will not hear one text quoted this day, that says anything about saints of God being finally lost. We intend to follow our friend closely to the end of the race; and, if there is such a text, we hope we shall see it, for we have never yet seen such a one. This point of doctrine, as well as many others, has been the subject of controversy for years. Much has been said and written upon the subject; and, yet, the difficulty is not settled. We have often been astonished, that any point in Christian theology, so clearly taught in the Bible, should be the subject of so much controversy. That the doctrine of falling away from a steadfastness in the faith, or backsliding from Christian duty, is taught in the Bible, is denied by none, but verily believed by us. But, that one born of God, made partaker of the divine nature, by which the soul is prepared to love God, and realize a personal interest in the merits of Christ -- that such an one can be finally lost, is a doctrine that we do not believe, neither is it taught in the sacred Scriptures; but, plainly and positively contradicted by Christ himself, as well as by the apostles and prophets. We wish it now to be distinctly understood, that such passage as the gentleman may introduce, that have any bearing upon the point at hand, we will reply to; but, such as have not, we shall pass by, for the simple reason, that we wish to have time to show the fallacy of the doctrine, from the plain language of the Bible. Our first position upon this subject is,that all saints are born of God; consequently, they are the children of God, and, as such, partake of the nature and substance of the parent of whom they are born; and therefore, we maintain that such an one cannot possibly so far fall away, as to be finally lost. We hope this position will not be forgotten, while we shall proceed to notice the gentleman's quotation from 2nd Peter, 1st chapter, 10th verse: "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure, for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall." Now we ask, what is said here about apostatizing and being finally lost? Not one word, nor is there one word of it in the whole chapter. We have already told you, that saints do sometimes fall from their steadfastness in the faith, which leads them into many errors in practice; but this is no evidence that they will be finally lost. We now remark, that however much the child may disobey its parents, or violate the laws of the father's house, which he has ordained for the government of his family, yet, all this does not destroy the relationship. It remains to be a child; and, notwithstanding the parent may very much disapprove of the conduct of the child, yet will he not disown him, but will use every means in his power, to reclaim his disobedient child, and bring him into subjection to the laws or rules of his house. Now, these things are self-evident, and known to be true by every parent in this audience; and, we further remark, that if the parent possessed the power to make the child love him, and render perfect obedience to him, he would be sure to do it. Well, does our heavenly Father possess less affection toward His children, than earthly parents do? Surely he does not. Does he lack power to influence His children to love and adore Him? Certainly He does not. Well, if he neither lacks affection or power to influence His children to obey Him, will He not do it, so far as will in the end result in the glory of God, our Father, and the welfare of His children? This position cannot be denied. We remark, is there a parent in all the wide world, that loves his children, and has the power to do them good, that would see them suffer eternally? We say, there is not. Neither will our heavenly Father punish His children eternally; but he will surely chastise them for every transgression and disobedience -- for every departure from the path of duty; yet, nevertheless, His loving kindness He will not utterly take from him, nor suffer his faithfulness to fail. Now, be it remembered, that the Apostle has said that no man ever yet hated his own flesh, but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church. Here the Apostle teaches the doctrine, that God loves the church as the man loves his own flesh; and, as no man can hate his own flesh, neither can our heavenly Father hate His children or church; and as the man will use every possible means in his power, to protect, and render easy and comfortable his own flesh, even so will our heavenly Father protect, happily and finally, glorify His dear children, in that kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world. But, the gentleman thinks we will need help, before we are through with this proposition, and proposes to aid us himself. We thank him kindly for his proposed assistance; but decline the acceptance of it, on the ground that we believe that we shall be able to get along without, and, being sure that the gentleman will have special use for all his mental powers, before he sustains the affirmative of the proposition now before us; and, after he has exhausted the last mite of his athletic mental abilities, he will even then need a new translation of the Bible, and the logic of Mr. Hedge, in the bargain, in order to sustain himself with honor before the people.
But we are now referred to Romans, 14th chapter, 15th verse, which reads: "But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died." Well, friends, is not this a clincher? Does it not prove beyond a doubt, that saints of God are finally lost? We wonder what will come next. We now say, and so will this audience, that this text does not in any way touch the doctrine of the proposition. We are here simply to understand, that we are not so to act as to throw a stumbling block in our brother's way, by which his happiness and usefulness in the church of God is destroyed. There is nothing said here about saints of God being finally lost. No, nor will he find it in all the book of God.
But my friend is off again into Rush county, Indiana, debating with Bro. Johnson. We advise our friend to stay at Mt. Vernon a few hours longer. He can get more help here to prove his theory, than he can get from Bro. Johnson. We know him too well to believe that he would aid Mr. Franklin to defend a doctrine that is not found in the Bible, and is fraught with such awful consequences to the hopes of the Christian. We hope we shall hereafter hear more about the proposition, and less about his debates elsewhere, for surely they can do him no good on this occasion. But we have another shameful burlesque upon us and our doctrine, instead of Bible truth. Well, what is it? Why, the gentleman says we have nothing to do but to feed a few starving sheep. Well, suppose this to be true; does this prove that the saints of the Most High God will be finally lost? Oh, what masterly logic is displayed here! Perhaps we had better surrender; such heavy discharges as this may bring us to the ground. But we will try to stand long enough to inform the gentleman that he is very much mistaken with regard to what we have to do, for we would have him know that a good shepherd will be as intent to keep off the dogs and wolves, as to feed the sheep. Both are absolutely necessary for the safety and well being of the flock.
We are next referred to the fifth chapter of James, 19th, 20th verses. Here the Apostle is exhorting his brethren to the discharge of their duty, and telling them what consequences will follow, but not one word about being finally lost, in the whole connection. But the gentleman wishes to know if we have not kept ourselves in the grace of God by our good works. We answer, most emphatically, No; that if we were left to be our own keeper, we should have made shipwreck long since; but, blessed be the Lord! his children are kept by his power, through faith, unto salvation; and if kept by his power, we are sure they are safe.
We are next referred to Hebrews, twelfth chapter, fourteenth verse. Here, also, the Apostle is urging upon his brethren the great propriety and absolute necessity of good works, and showing them the blessed consequences that follow, but says nothing about the saints of God apostatizing and being finally lost. We have already said, that we did verily believe that saints could, and many of them did, fail of the grace or favor of God by a willful neglect of their duty, and drew down upon them the chastening rod of their Heavenly Father; but this by no means argues that their Heavenly Father will punish them eternally in hell. No; but proves the fact that they shall be severely chastised for their errors and wrongs, which chastisement will lead the child to repentance, and will work the peaceable fruits of righteousness to them that are exercised thereby. But the gentleman says we remind him of an old proverb, which says, "You can and you can't, you shall and you shan't, you will be damned if you do, and you will be damned if yo don't." Now, we think this suits the gentleman's theory precisely; for he says the sinner can if he will, and cannot if he don't will. Now, we teach that Almighty God does the work, without asking permission either of the devil or sinner, so that the sinner's will is not consulted in the matter. We also teach that saints cannot fall from grace, because God is their keeper. My friend says they can; but they can't, if they will do their duty. Hence, you see the proverb suits him and not us. But the gentleman is back again after Esau. What has this to do with falling from grace? Was he ever a child of God? was he ever born again? Was he a saint? No, verily. Jehovah himself hated him. If the gentleman intends to argue that such characters as Esau finally perish, we shall have no further debate; for we believe it. But let him first prove that Esau was a saint. But this he will not try to do. What will he next introduce to prove that saints are finally lost? In all that he has yet offered as testimony, there has not been one word about apostasy, or saints being finally lost. We now tell you, dear friends, that he will never find one word of this doctrine in our Bible. What he could do, if he had his eight translations here, and they were admitted as evidence, we cannot tell; but sure it is, our present or common version will never sustain him in the doctrine he is now contending for.
But our minds are directed in the next place to Acts, first chapter, 24th, 25th verses. You, my audience, can read them at your leisure. The Apostle is here speaking of Judas, and of his fall, but not one word about his falling from grace. It has yet to be proven, that Judas ever was a saint, and this we know will not be done even by the learned Mr. Franklin. There is, however, one thing proven by this connection, and that is, that Judas had a place, and to that place he must go.
We are next invited to the 17th chapter of John. We now say, in that whole chapter there is not one word said about apostatizing, or being finally lost; and as such, we shall not take time to refer to it. We should have great use for this chapter in the discussion of a different proposition.
Our attention is next called to Romans, 11:19, 20, 21. We will not reply to this connection, for there is not one word said in the whole chapter about falling from grace, apostasy, or being finally lost. If the gentleman will acknowledge that he cannot prove his proposition, and wishes to abandon it and discuss some other subject, we will attend to his wishes; but we do not intend to reply to so many irrelevant passages, for it would consume all our time. We understand our friend; he is awfully afraid that we shall get time to open our battery upon him before we close. Well he may be afraid, for we intend to do it; and, when it is done, he will be sure to feel it, and ought to acknowledge its power. We wonder why the gentleman has not introduced the language of Job, "The oxen were plowing in the field." The audience, perhaps, remember the quotation. This text would come as near proving the doctrine of falling from grace, as any he has yet introduced. Well, it is the best he can do, and, as such he should not be blamed for it.
We now come to Galatians, fifth chapter and fourth verse, which reads, "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law: ye are fallen from grace." Now, such texts as these we are willing to reply to. This has some appearance, at first view, of sustaining the gentleman's theory. We will therefore attend to it in the best manner we can. In the first place, then, we way, that there had been Judaizing teachers among the churches of Galatia, who had taught those Christians to believe that they must be justified by the deeds of the law, according to the former custom of the Jews under the legal dispensation, and by this kind of teaching had banished the Galatian brethren, which is evident from the language of the Apostle, recorded in the third chapter, where he says, "O, foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you," and again, "Are ye so foolish? having begun in the spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" And in the third chapter he tells them, that he that is circumcised is a debtor to do the whole law. He tells them, moreover, that if they are circumcised, Christ shall profit them nothing. He exhorts them to stand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ has made them free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage; and then, in the further discussion of this subject, says: Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the deeds of the law, ye are fallen from grace. Now, the sum total of the Apostle's argument is this: all those who taught and believed the doctrine of salvation by works, or the deeds of the law, which is precisely the same thing, in this teaching and believing, they set at naught the merits and blood of Christ, and said "Thereby we do not depend upon Jesus Christ for salvation, but upon our own works in observing the commandments in the law, by which we expect to obtain eternal salvation." Hence, those who are justified by the deeds of the law are fallen from grace, but no man will, who is justified by the justified by the deeds of the law. We answer, None; for, saith an Apostle, by the deeds of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight. Hence, if no flesh is justified by the deeds of the law, and none fall from grace but such as are justified by the deeds of the law, who then is left to fall from grace? Why, just nobody. Well, this is what we believe; and for what we are here contending, we would now ask, What has the gentleman made by reference to the fifth of Galatians? Why, he has made as much by that reference as he has by any other; and that is, nothing -- nor will he make anything in favor of his proposition by reference to the whole Bible.
But we are next invited to Hebrews 6, fifth and sixth verses. We shall commence with the fourth verse: "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened and have tasted of the Heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." Well, we are glad the gentleman is giving us something to do. We will attend to all such Scriptures as these; but when he gets after oxen plowing in the field, we will not follow him, but, as the boys say, "just let him rip." Well, what do we learn from the connection just read? We learn precisely what we learn from the fifth of Galatians. The very best mode of expounding the holy word of God is to take it in its connection. We wish you, therefore, to read the twelfth verse of the preceding chapter, and you will there find that the Apostle was laboring to correct an error which those Hebrew brethren had embraced with regard to what Christ had accomplished by his sufferings and death. Hence, he tells them that for the time they ought to be teachers; they had need that one teach them again, which be the first principles of the oracles of God. He also tells them that they had need of milk, and not of strong meat. Now, in the sixth chapter he tells them that, "Leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith towards God, of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands," &c. Now, here the whole mystery is explained. Those brethren being accustomed to rely upon Jewish ceremonies under the law, still seemed loath to give them up, while the inspired Apostle is engaged in expounding to them the way of the Lord more perfectly, and therefore tells them that all that they attempt to do, in point of their own salvation, is a denial of the efficacy of the blood of Christ; that Christ is the great substance to which all those shadows pointed; that he, the substance, had now come. Hence, every effort made under the law, was crucifying the son of God afresh, and putting him to an open shame. Hence, if it was possible for you to fall away, it would be impossible to renew you again to repentance. And why? Because Christ has already come and suffered, thereby fulfilling all the types and shadows, and finishing the great work of man's salvation; and if you now reject him, you are gone forever, for he will die no more for sinners. Hence the language, "if these shall fall away." The very language itself conveys the idea of the utter impossibility of their falling, while there is not one word here about the saints of God apostatizing and being finally lost; so you see, my friends, there is nothing in the sixth of Hebrews to sustain the doctrine taught by the gentleman.
But, again, we are referred to Hebrews 10, verse 22. Here, in this chapter, the Apostle is warning his brethren against the awful consequences of sin, and of the just judgments of Almighty God against those who sin willfully, and of the fearfulness of falling into the hands of the living God, just as every faithful servant of God should do. But, mark it, he does not tell them that their Heavenly Father will send them to hell, and that they shall finally be lost. Nay, verily, the Apostle never taught such a doctrine as this; he knew better; for he, as well as his brother John, would testify that, if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. But this should not, by any means, encourage men to sin, for all saints should live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present world; but, for the encouragement of such as are overcome by sin, it is said they have an advocate with the Father.
But my friend is gone again, and where to we cannot tell; he is now debating again with Elder Matthews. We would be glad if our friend would continue at Mt. Vernon until evening, and remember that he is not now debating with Elder Matthews, and that he can get no help from that quarter. We wish him to attend closely to the proposition now before us, but we rather guess he is about out of ammunition. We know all his strong points (as he supposes) are swept away, and in the whole of them not one word is said about apostatizing, or the saints of God being lost. We wish this fact to be remembered: that in all he has said, he has not attempted to show one text that proves the doctrine of his proposition.
But he is off again upon the second proposition. We suppose he is not satisfied with his effort upon that subject. Well, we do not wonder at it, for he made a very bad show in sustaining his system of works. He now tells us that he believes in salvation by grace as much as we do. Well, suppose he does; will this prove that the saints of God are finally lost? We suppose it will come as near it as anything he has introduced. We would just remark, however, that Elder Franklin's grace is too full of ifs and buts to suit us, and so full that grace is entirely destroyed.
We have now replied to all the gentleman's arguments that we thought worthy of note. We have also answered all the Scripture that had any bearing upon the subject matter in debate; and we shall devote the remainder of our time to negative arguments and Scriptures, as we may have opportunity. We hope the friends have not forgotten the arguments introduced when we first got up. We now repeat, that the child of God is born of God, and necessarily partakes of the nature and substance of God his father, and therefore the thing born of God is holy as the Father of whom it is born. Hence, John says, "He that is born of God cannot sin, because his seed remaineth in him, and he cannot sin because he is born of God." We here remark, that those born of God are saints of God, and they cannot sin; consequently, they cannot fall from grace. We hope our friend will attend to this point in his next speech.
We affirm, in the next place, that the child of God partakes of the nature and substance of God, and therefore God cannot punish him eternally without punishing his own nature and substance.
We affirm, in the next place, that the disobedience of the child does not destroy the relationship existing between parents and children; and, should the child be guilty of a capital offence against the laws of the State, and suffer the most ignominious death, yet still the relationship remains the same. Now, if our views are correct, what is the consequence, if Mr. Franklin's theory be true. Simply this: here is one of the children of God possessing the nature and substance of its Father, going down to the regions of darkness to suffer the vengeance of eternal fire. Now, what must be the feelings of the Father, under such circumstances? Could the Father be happy? Most assuredly he could not. Now hear the Apostle declare, when speaking of the family of God under the figure of a human body, that "if one member suffer, all the members suffer with it." Now, if this be true, and surely it is, what follows? Why, if the saints compose the body of Christ, (and this will not be denied) and one of those saints suffer eternally, then all the saints suffer with it; and this is not all, for Jesus is declared to be the head of the body, consequently a member of the body, and he must suffer, too. O, my God?! can such a doctrine be true? Is this what is taught in thy blessed word? No, blessed be the name of the Lord! there is not one word of truth in it. Such a system as this dishonors God, slanders the Bible, destroys the peace of Christians if they believe it, and insults common sense. And this is not still all. It represents Jehovah as changeable, or he must love his children in torment.
We now intend to prove by the Bible, in positive terms, that this doctrine of falling from grace is basely false. Yes, the gentleman may now prepare himself for such a discharge from our artillery, that will make the deception of his delusive system manifest to all present. Our first proof-text will be found in the Prophecy of Isaiah, 35:10, which reads: "And the ransomed of the Lord shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away." Now, if my friend can tell when everlasting joy is to be set on end, he can then find a time when the redeemed may be punished, but not till then. Also, chapter 45, 17th verse: "But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end." The last verse of the same chapter reads, "In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory." Here, then, is the whole family of God that is to realize safety and happiness, world without end. This is just long enough. Read the seventeenth verse of the fifty-fourth chapter, where the prophet says, "No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn." Now, if no weapon is to prosper, and the saints are to condemn every tongue that rises up against them, are they not safe? Yes, beyond the power of the devil himself.
We now refer you to Jeremiah, chapter 31:31-34, inclusive, which we wish you to read at your leisure. The thirty-fourth verse ends thus: "for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." We now ask this audience, if it can be true that God will eternally punish a people whose sins He has declared He will remember no more? Every candid mind in this audience must say, Surely he will not.
But we will now invite your attention to the gospel of John, chapter 3, 36th verse, which reads: "He that believeth on the son hath everlasting life." Now, we see that the believer in Jesus is in possession of everlasting life, and we know that everlasting life cannot die; neither can those possessed of it suffer eternal punishment. But we intend to show you, by the Bible, that Elder Franklin has to prove Jesus himself a liar, before he can sustain his proposition; and this we know he can never do.
We now refer you to John 5, 24th and 25th verses. Hear them: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that heareth my word and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, the hour is coming, and now is when the dead shall hear the voice of the son of God, and they that hear shall live." We ask you, my audience, what language could be plainer? What could the Savior have said more to have confirmed the disciples in the great truth, that believers in Jesus were sure of heaven? He does not only say that they have everlasting life, but positively declares they shall not come into condemnation, and then gives the reason: because they have passed from death unto life. "But," says Mr. Franklin, "they may come into condemnation, and be finally lost." Now, we ask this audience, could one man contradict another more positively than does my friend contradict the Savior? You know they could not. Well, who do you think knew best? or who shall we believe? We are not ashamed nor afraid to say, that Jesus knew best: that he told the truth: and we are disposed to believe him. Well, the very same idea is confirmed in the twenty-fifth verse. He there says, the dead shall hear his voice, and that they shall live. Well, how long shall they live? We answer, as long as Jesus lives, and that is long enough. We have now proven the gentleman's proposition positively false, by the language of the Savior; and, in doing this, we have shown you that Elder Franklin is not ashamed to contradict him who spake as never man spake.
But we are not done yet. Turn to John, 6th chapter, 47th verse, where the Savior more abundantly confirms what he said in the 5th chapter. He here says, "Verily, verily I say unto you, he that believeth on me hath everlasting life." Here this important truth is confirmed by a double "verily." It is true, and it cannot be otherwise. Hence, my friend must show that everlasting life has an end, or he cannot show that any of the saints of God will be finally lost.
But this soul-cheering doctrine is more powerfully confirmed by the blessed Savior, in John 10th chapter, 27, 28, 29, where he says, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father which gave them me is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one." O, my friends! is not this enough? The blessed Jesus here says, most positively, that his children shall never perish; "for," says he, "none is able to pluck them out of my hand." Moreover, he says, that his Father is greater than all, and none is able to take them away from the Father, and then concludes by saying, "I and my Father are one." Hence, while Jesus lives, they cannot die. Nay, more; while the Eternal God himself lives, the devil, with all his legions of wicked spirits, never can eternally punish the members of Christ's body, the objects of his unchanging love.
We will now consult the Apostle Peter, and see what he has to say upon this subject. In his first letter, first chapter, 4th and 5th verses, where the Apostle is addressing the strangers who were scattered abroad, after telling them in the third verse what had been accomplished by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, which was the begetting them again to a lively hope, he adds, to an inheritance incorruptible, undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation, &c. Now, here is an incorruptible inheritance for an incorruptible people, which inheritance is reserved in heaven for them, and they are kept by the power of God. Hence, until there can be some power introduced that is greater than the power of God, the saints are safe; and hence my friend's proposition is proven false by the Apostle Peter. But read the twenty-third verse, same chapter, which says, these people were "born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever." We will here take a position that we dare our friend to deny, and that is, that which is incorruptible never can be corrupted; consequently, those born of this incorruptible seed never can become corrupted, and as such they never can suffer in a future world, for our God will only execute his judgments, and manifest his wrath and indignation against sin, and upon such as are not conformed to the image of Jesus, or have not been born again of corruptible seed.
But my time is nearly out, and let me say before I sit down, that you will see Elder Franklin will not attempt to reply to one of the many texts which we have now introduced, for the simply reason that he cannot reply to them successfully; and this should convince all present that his theory is wrong, and that the doctrine of final apostasy is not taught in the sacred Scriptures, but has its origin in a very different source.
Time expired.
